Are You a Creationist or an Evolutionist pt 1?

SPEAKER A You once to every time in the sight of the good or evil sky don't break on you that I choice of life forever with that darkness. And. SPEAKER B The Bible assures us in Ephesians two, verses eight to ten, for by grace you have been saved through faith. And that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Welcome to faith to faith Here are your hosts, Ettienne McClintock and Braedan Entermann. SPEAKER C Dear listener, greetings and a warm welcome. Thank you for joining us on the program again today. We are delighted to have your company. We have a very interesting program for you and we're going to discuss a topic which will seem to be a contradiction in terms. The question is, are you a creationist or an evolutionist? Now, this will be part one of a two part program and we look forward to unpacking that with you a little bit. But just as we start, we just want to invite you to join us as we pray. Gracious Father in heaven, it's our privilege this morning to look at these beautiful topics. One is creation, the other one is evolution. And there's an antagonism between the two. But ultimately, Father, we are seekers for truth. We want to understand and know the truth. And you've promised us that the truth will set us free. And we want to be set free from deception and error. And we just pray for such that the spirit of truth which you've promised will guide us into all truth. Baptize us afresh with your Holy Spirit. Lead us in the discussion. In our study is our prayer. In Jesus name. SPEAKER D Amen. SPEAKER E Amen. SPEAKER C So, Braedan, we have this topic, it's a fascinating topic says, are you a creationist or an evolutionist? Now, I guess some people would say, well, they sort of believe in both. But we're going to unpack those contradictions a little bit more as we go through this. But we are seekers for truth. Jesus made a statement in John chapter seven and verse 17. He says, if anyone wills to do his will, he's being the Father's will, God the Father's will, he shall know concerning the doctrine. Now, the word doctrine just simply means teaching. He shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God or whether I speak of my own authority. So we want to know what is the best view, the best worldview to look at things. Is it the creation worldview or is it the evolutionary worldview? SPEAKER E Some of our listeners may be thinking, isn't this a series on faith? SPEAKER D Yes. SPEAKER E Why are we talking about evolution and creation? This is not a science program looking at different things like that. This is a series on what it means to live by faith. SPEAKER C That's right. SPEAKER E So that's a very interesting question which we will unpack. This is actually a very relevant discussion, a very relevant series, this two part series. And it actually unpacks what is faith and how to live by faith. SPEAKER C That's true because, I mean, many Christian young people are raised up to believe in God as the Creator. Then they end up going to university and they study there and they may the first year. As they walk into the doors there, they sing I'm a child of the King. And then when they come back after a bit of study, they come back, I'm the son of an ape. So the people change their worldview because they're told that science and objectivity teaches them that we are here because of an evolutionary process. But there are still gaps in evolutionary theory. That's why it's called a theory. There are scientific principles in there, of course, but there are many scientists who are also creationists and believe in creation. And all the evidence that they see points to a creator God intelligent design. So how do we unpack these two things which seem to be these two concepts, these two worldviews which are very antagonistic towards one another? SPEAKER E Well, how about we start by just giving a brief definition of each of those things? SPEAKER C Okay? SPEAKER E Let's start with creation, right? The idea of creation is that God is the source of life and he is the one who's the active driver in making this planet everything that it is. SPEAKER D Yes. SPEAKER E And so we have the account in Genesis, chapter one, where there's this dark, watery abyss, this black chaos, as it were. And God is the active agent who steps in and by his power, his creative power creates the world and everything in it creates human beings in the space of one week. SPEAKER D Right? SPEAKER E So we have this black, watery darkness into this beautiful paradise by the power of God, okay? SPEAKER C So there's a dark abyss, there's no light, there's nothing. And out of this abyss, within a matter of six days, God creates. Now, we can read about that in Hebrews chapter eleven and verse three. It says, by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God. So God spoke the world into existence and everything that's in it. So that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. So it came out of nothingness. And I guess evolution tries to explain that as well. It's also something came out of nothingness. But they say in the beginning there was this big ball of gas and then there was a spark somehow, I don't know, it was lightning or what it was there was a spark and there was a massive explosion. So they also try and explain the origins out of nothing to something. Although they say there was gas to start off with, we saying there was nothing, there were no elements. And God initially had to create what was there by his word, and the materials actually materialized by Him speaking them into existence. SPEAKER E So they're quite similar, aren't they, in the sense that they start with nothing? You start with the basic essential ingredients of nothing. Yes, to a certain extent. And there's a process of going onward and upward, but there are some fundamental differences, like, what would you say is the fundamental difference? What's the theory of evolution if you were to define it? SPEAKER C Well, the difference is, if we look at creation, god spoke it into existence. He took six days. That's where we get our marker for a seven day week. There's nothing in science, there's nothing through observation that would mark off seven days for it to create a week. We still have that with us. Now, if we look at the moon, we can get a monthly cycle. You get your 28 days thereabouts. If you look at the day cycle, 24 hours period. Well, day and night, day and night, one comes after the other, and then you get your 24 hours cycle. When it comes to the year, we can look at the movement of our planet around the sun. It takes a full year, 365 days, I think 365.26 roughly days to to go around, or two, four days to go around. So you can get the annual marker, you can get your monthly markers, you can get your daily markers. But the weekly marker only comes back from the creation. And we say that God created in six literal days, rested the 7th day, and then marked off the first week. Now, evolution takes time as well. It takes a time period. And what the evolution basically says is that it is a gradual transition from something that's indeterminate to determinate. It is from taking something from that is uniform to varied. So you might must start with one. And before you know it, you have multiple different species, all stemming from the one. It is actually, evolution, people say, is synonymous with progress. So you start with something simple, and then you end up with something a little bit more complex. So it's a tradition from the lower to the higher, often something that is worse to something that is better. So that's what evolution is. And it also assumes that this process is inherent in the world itself, thus able to transform itself. So there's something within the evolutionary process, within itself, that's able to transform and change itself. And the thing that causes it to get better is itself, but then it increases in value in existence, in itself. And the thing that causes that to happen is just a natural process. But it needs time, it needs the right environment, it needs time, it needs a number of those processes. SPEAKER E So if we were to compare the two, creation and evolution, they both start with the basic ingredients of nothing. Yes, essentially. And they're both heading in this direction of paradise, something better than what it is with creation. God is the active driver for making that happen. In the theory of evolution, the nature itself is the active driver. SPEAKER D That's right. SPEAKER E So you've got God, an external or you've got this innate self in nature itself that drives it forward. SPEAKER C So the thing that causes things to get better in evolution is itself. SPEAKER E That's right. SPEAKER C Yeah. So it touches on, obviously, environment, chance and time, and it's a slow process. So you cannot observe evolution because you're not on the planet long enough, basically. SPEAKER E That's right. SPEAKER A Now. SPEAKER E It's very interesting today, when we look around us, it's not all black and white. We don't just see the creationist camp. And then on the other side, we don't just see the evolutionist camp. There's actually stuff happening in the middle. SPEAKER C That's right. SPEAKER E We have a thing called theistic evolution where people try to have their arm around God and yet also around the scientists as well that are down the evolutionary tract. SPEAKER C That's right. SPEAKER E Of course, you pointed out before that there are many scientists who believe that the evidence in the world around us points to a creator God. SPEAKER C That's right. SPEAKER E But you got this middle ground camp that wants to say that there is a God. SPEAKER D Yes. SPEAKER C So they don't want to walk away from their faith. SPEAKER E They don't want to walk away from their faith, but they also want to incorporate into their faith millions of years in slow process. SPEAKER C That's right. That form of science. That's right. That mindset. So they come up with this, theistic evolution concept, where God in the beginning created. He got the process going. We don't know when, but somewhere in the distant past, long, long millions and millions of years, if not billions of years, he got things going. 4.6 billion, some people say. I don't know how they determined that, but say 4.6, he got things going. And through this evolutionary process, god has actually created it, but he's the originator of it. He's the one that created the ball of gas and lit the spark, so to speak. SPEAKER E And so what we have here is a major inconsistency. You've got claims of a creator God, yet also the theory of evolution embraced as well. And so it's kind of like a hybrid standing up for God, yet also standing up for theory of evolution. It's kind of an amalgamation of two concepts. And we actually see that around us. And it'd be awesome for us to spend a bit of time looking at inconsistencies that we see around us in this world. SPEAKER C The world is filled with inconsistencies. And I believe we've inherited it because of the sin of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve, when they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It was a hybrid of truth and error that came together and in our life. Quite often when you've got to make decisions, you'll weigh up the circumstances what's good and what's bad about the idea and you can come up with some ideas. If you go ahead with that, it'll be good. If you go ahead with that, it'll be bad. So then you got to weigh up, well, is it going to be more good than bad or what? It is? But there's contradiction continuously. It's very rare that you find something that's 100% good and say, well, look, there is no downside to this whatsoever. Let's go down this path. Normally there's a downside to everything. For example, if you have time on your hands, quite often it's because you're unemployed, but you don't have the money. But if you have the money, maybe you're working so hard you don't have the time. So there's a contradiction there. So do you work a little bit less so you can have more time? And how much less do you work so you can have more time to do some of the other things that you want to do? If you have too much time to do all the things you want to do, well, then maybe you don't have enough time for work. Then you don't have the funds required to sustain your lifestyle. So there's all these contradictions in life and we can perhaps talk about some of those. People quite often talk about the contradictions. Going back to the Book of Genesis, we know that it was good and evil that fought against good. It was light and darkness that fought against light. It was truth and error that fought against truth. So there's these contradictions fighting against truth. And we can have these contradictions even with people who take this hybrid between evolution and creation. But have you ever heard that term fighting fire with fire? SPEAKER E Yeah, I have heard that. SPEAKER D Yeah. SPEAKER C So quite often people will actually use that approach in, say, condemning something. It might be something they disapprove of. Let's take, for example, Braedan. You talk to me, right, and you say, Etienne, what you did was wrong and I'm offended by it. You might be right. I might be offended by it. And then I say, well, Braedan, that's very judgmental of you. And then I start berating you for being judgmental. But I've just gone through a process where I've measured what you said and determined it to be wrong. So I've judged you to be an error. And now I am actually reciprocating the judgment that you've placed on me by judging you for judging me. So it's really a contradiction. I mean, in Earth we have that all the time. So people actually oppose judgmentalism, but in the process they become quite judgmental of the people who are judgmental. SPEAKER E That's very interesting, isn't it? Because I remember when I was younger, I was mean to my brother for being mean to my sister. SPEAKER C Okay, well, I think that happens quite often in families. SPEAKER E And I remember just being so frustrated with him for being mean to my sister. And so I was mean to my brother for being mean to my sister. It's interesting, fighting fire with fire. What I was claiming I was in my mind claiming that what he was doing was wrong. SPEAKER D Yes. SPEAKER E And yet somehow I missed it. I didn't see how much of a hypocrite I was. SPEAKER C But you judged what you did was right, but you were fighting fire with fire. SPEAKER E That's right. I'm trying to oppose something that I think is bad, and I'm doing the exact same thing. So we got these inconsistencies. We see it in the news around us. There's the discussions on equality, and there's all this uproar about intolerance same sex. SPEAKER C Marriage for same sex marriage. SPEAKER D Yes. SPEAKER E And it's so interesting, people who are opposing this intolerance that they see what did they use to oppose this intolerance? SPEAKER C Well, that's intolerance as well, isn't it? SPEAKER E What attitude do they have towards those people? Is it one of love or is it one of hatred as well? So we've got hatred on both sides. SPEAKER D Yes. SPEAKER E And yet the people who are opposing this intolerance claiming to stand for something a whole lot better, claiming to stand on a higher ground, cannot tolerate they. SPEAKER C Cannot tolerate other people who disagree with them. So lots of I saw this during the big debate, lots of people who are opposed to the Christian worldview that marriage is between a man and a woman and not between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. The people cannot tolerate that kind of mindset and worldview because they say it's intolerant. SPEAKER E It's so interesting. It's kind of like you can believe whatever you want, but not that that's right. It's equality. Everyone can do their own thing, but don't do that. SPEAKER C Yeah, everyone can do their own thing except for you, if you believe that. SPEAKER E And so there's an inconsistency. And we can understand why people want to stand up against things, but it seems like we as human beings get really caught up in the middle, the gray area. So we've got the black and the white. We think we're spinning against the black, but we're actually behaving like the black. So we actually get ourselves completely spun around as Christians. SPEAKER C So fighting fire with fire is fighting evil with evil quite often as well. That comes out in war a lot of the time. War brings out the worst passion in mankind. And you may go and fight the enemy for the sake of freedoms. But for example, let's look at the war on terror. What is a terrorist? A terrorist is someone that blows up people, that kills people, that takes their rights away, that tortures people. And terrorists do that. They torture people. It's nasty. And so America, since 911, has had a war on terror. But in the process of fighting against terror, they started fighting fire with fire. We have Abu Grabe, where people were tortured. People died during torture. We have Guantanamo Bay, where people are tortured as well for the sake of fighting against people who torture other people who are called terrorists. So in our life terrorize the terrorists. SPEAKER E Yeah. SPEAKER C Politically, we have that as well. We have this contradiction in terms. We have it in war, we have it in relationships. That is, that the knowledge of good and evil has permeated everything on this planet. SPEAKER E That's so interesting because what we're discovering here is that we can in our minds as human beings, be so opposed to something, but be completely doing the opposite of what we're intending to do. SPEAKER D Yes. SPEAKER E In the book of Titus, we have an interesting verse, titus, chapter one, and verse 16, and it says, they profess to know God, but in works they deny him being abominable, disobedient and disqualified for every good work. So they profess to know God, but in their works, their lifestyle, the way they're living, they're actually denying God? SPEAKER D Yes. SPEAKER E So they're claiming to be standing for God, opposed to the devil, but they're actually working for the devil and actually are opposed to God. SPEAKER C Isn't it interesting? SPEAKER D Yeah. SPEAKER C It reminds me of a text in the Old Testament as well. And it says, with their words, they show much love, but their hearts are far removed from me. God says that. And I'm just thinking about a text that Jesus also adds there. Those contradictions were seen repeatedly amongst religious people in Jesus time. And I want to go to the text in John, chapter eight and verse 39 where we read the following. Now, Jesus is having a discussion with the Jews about Abraham, and they saying that they were not born a fornication they are the descendants of Abraham. And then Jesus says to them in verse 37, he says, I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill me because my words has no place in you. And he says, I've spoken what I've seen with my father. And then they answer in verse 39 and said to him, abraham is your father. And then Jesus said to him, but if Abraham was your father, if you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. So you're saying Abraham's your father, but you're not doing the works of Abraham. It says in verse 40, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God, abraham did not do this. So how is it you can claim that you're Abraham's descendants and you're like Abraham, yet you're trying to kill someone? Trying to murder someone. Abraham didn't do any of the stuff. So there's a contradiction in what they saying and the works that they are demonstrating, like you just showed in Titus, chapter one, verse 16, they profess to know God, but in works they deny Him. SPEAKER E Jesus says in John, chapter 16 that a time is coming. And we've seen this all throughout history. Jesus says the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God's service. And he's talking in the context of religion. Religious people who claim to follow God will actually think that they're serving God by killing God's followers. SPEAKER D Wow. SPEAKER E So a major inconsistency. A major inconsistency. And so what we have is a group of people who, on paper are opposed to the devil, but in reality they're actually working for the devil. This weird gray middle area where you're thinking you're opposed to something, but you're actually supporting something. SPEAKER D Right. SPEAKER E And so we want to ask the question, is it possible to be a Christian who is opposed to evolution and yet be an evolutionist at the same time? SPEAKER C That is a good question. I'd like to unpack that because that's one that's always intrigued me. Because evolution is totally antagonistic towards creation. It cannot acknowledge a God as greater. It cannot acknowledge intelligent design, yet there are some that somehow try and make it work by becoming theistic evolutionist, this contradiction between the two where evolution says, no, the process of development, the process of progress is inherent within the process itself. It doesn't need any external forces or any external power to make things happen. It's all happened by chance. It's all happened because of long periods of time. So the time period is essential to evolution because, I mean, if we look at, say, listen, I can't observe evolution, and they go, well, because you don't live long enough on this planet. Because we're talking about evolution. The Big Bang started 4.6 billion years ago. So what we see now is just something the processes are so slow, it cannot be observed by human eyes because we're only here for three score in ten or 100 years or whatever it is, if we're lucky. So it's a challenge. SPEAKER E Some people, when they think about theistic evolution, they go, no way in the world. I won't believe in that. I believe in creation. I believe in God as The Creator. As you and I have been studying through this particular topic, it's become apparent that we may be more evolutionary in our thinking and in our Christian experience than we think. SPEAKER D Yes. SPEAKER E Let's actually have a look at you've already looked at it briefly, but we'll continue to unpack the nuts and bolts of evolution. As you pointed out, its basic definition is a transition from the lower to the higher. SPEAKER C That's right. SPEAKER E It's a progress of the lower orders to the higher orders. It's self driven. There's something inherent in itself that is driving it forward. It's very much contingent on having the right environment. There's an element of chance, lots of time ups and downs and slow processes. SPEAKER D That's right. Yes. SPEAKER E And so when we actually break this down, evolution is the process of evolution is the idea. You start with nothing, you end with something amazing. And it takes a whole bunch of time, lots of ice Ages, ups and downs all through the middle of it, trying to get to something a lot higher, and it's dependent on itself to get there. SPEAKER D Yeah. SPEAKER C And in the process, there are ups and downs. You're saying there's cataclysms of time, there's an ice age, things are wiped out, a meteorite strikes the earth, and then the process has to start again. So there's an up and down process, but ultimately you get to a stage where things get better and better, and man systematically becomes elevated, and then he's gone from a lower life form, like an ape, into a human being. And from there, if time by what time continues, he will progress into something better than a human being as well. SPEAKER E One thing that I find so interesting about this, Etienne, is that I'm finding as I read this here, it's actually striking home a little bit, especially as I look around the Christian world. What about this idea, wanting to become something better than what you are? I e we're wanting to become like Jesus. SPEAKER D Yes. SPEAKER E And what's our Christian experience look like? What has our Christian experience looked like? Has it been something where we know, if only I was in a different environment. SPEAKER D That's right. SPEAKER E If only I had the right environment, then I would thrive. SPEAKER C Better opportunities, better chances. SPEAKER E If only I had a better education. If only I had this, if only I had that, then I would be able to reach that standard. What about this one? If only I didn't get this draw this hand. If only I had some different chances, if only I had different opportunities, then I would be able to live the life that Jesus is calling me to. How long have some people been on their Christian journey? And what has that journey look like? SPEAKER C That's right. SPEAKER D Yeah. SPEAKER C So obviously we're talking about time as well, the time factor. You can't expect me to be a saint overnight. It's going to take a lifetime to be that. And therefore this transformation needs the time component in there as well. SPEAKER E And if people were to look at their life's journey and we can relate to this so well, because I really believe that we naturally have this mindset, one day I will be able to be this. One day I'll be able to overcome this. And our life pattern, if we were to draw it, is a series of ups and downs. An ice age here or there. SPEAKER D That's right. SPEAKER E A big volcano and eruption. We see that sometimes and we start again. It's interesting when you accidentally cut someone off in the traffic and you see some eruptions now, and then we see these things. SPEAKER D Yes. SPEAKER E And it's this process of ups and downs. And people are saying, one day, one day I will be able to be a Christian. One day I'll be able to overcome this. One day. SPEAKER D Yes. SPEAKER E What I'm finding here is quite challenging is that I look at evolution. If I was to draw it. You start down low and you're getting higher through ups and downs, gradual processes to become something more. And then I look at the typical Christian experience and they kind of look the same. SPEAKER C So God starts a thing by faith, we start and then from there we sort of almost left on our own. We got to make sure we go through all the processes, we go through all the exercises. Some days we win, some days we lose, some days we have a big fall and then we got to start rebuilding again. But overall, we're progressing slowly. We're better now than we were ten years ago. SPEAKER E Are you talking about evolution? Are you talking about Christianity here? SPEAKER C Well, we're talking about the average understanding of Christianity because I believe that evolution has actually crept in to the way people view Christianity and even may even interpret the Scripture from that. Now, we know that the Scripture talks about something totally different. It talks about creation. And does creation take a lot of time or is it instant? And this is something we want to unpack in our next program a little bit more, but you've got a text you want to share with us. SPEAKER E So I'm here in Psalm 51 and for anyone who's just listening and goes and is thinking, well, my Christian experience is actually a mirror reflection of the theory of evolution. Gradual ups and down, slow process. There's ice ages and all these different things with a whole bunch of time in between trying to get better. There's a good news because God is a Creator, he's not a modifier, he's a Creator. The Bible says in Psalm 51 and verse ten, it says, create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. David recognized that God is not a modifier. He's not someone who puts a Band Aid on it and hopes that it heals over a period of time. He's someone who is a Creator who can actually fix our sin problem. SPEAKER C Wonderful. That is good news and that is encouragement to us as well. So maybe we've been caught in this time warp, dare I say the word time warp where we think it's a low, where we think it's a slow process that we got to believe. We've started believing in the beginning, but God has now left it to us. He started it's like theistic evolution. He started the big bang. And from there he's left the process to create what we see now. And quite often we can take that same mindset, but God tells us that he is a Creator and that he's able to create in us a clean heart, where a clean heart doesn't exist before. So, dear listener, we have just finished part one of this program called are you a Creationist or Evolutionist? We look forward to catching up with you next time as we unpack part two. SPEAKER B Thank you for joining us on Faith. To Faith. If you would like more information about today's program or if you have any questions, please contact 3ABN Australia Radio by Phoning. 02 4973 3456. Or you can send an email to [email protected] You can also contact us on our 3ABN Australia radio Facebook page. We'd love to hear from you.